Note · This transcript is reproduced from the publicly released conversation. Lightly paragraphed for readability; spelling and phrasing preserved as in the source. Speaker shifts are denoted with horizontal rules where they could be reliably identified from context.

Welcome back to the Michael investigators podcast and they called the impromptu and with me today is Eney Jones. Eney, how are you doing? I’m doing well, thank you, and we’re going to talk about my recent article about Bryan Mineo and his nonprofit One With the Ocean — but you’re an elite swimmer yourself so before we get into that, give the audience a little bit of background on things you accomplished as a swimmer.

I swam national champion relay team and I’m a swimmer and I was the first woman out of six Ironman’s division in the women and I grew up swimming. My dad was a gold medal in the Olympics. I studied swimming, I teach swimming, I love swimming. It’s a great community and it’s a great schedule for people to have. And you qualified in ’80? Except we were on that national team. We did go to Hawaii for three weeks cause they did have money — they weren’t sending a team — so I know I was actually an alternate as well, but it just didn’t seem real. But it was the first time politics had gotten into a sport that I had seen, because when I was swimming collegiately it was kind of a difficult time…

And a lot of swimmers and a lot of our alliances… and then you know — Gerry Rodrigues, school interview for the first article. I don’t know how well you can do it, but give his résumé, and you can go back and look at some of the things he’s done. But what he’s really done in the last few years is through podcast and group swims at Tower 26 and online coaching. He has helped people really move through, especially careers, their swim, because it doesn’t affect easily the outcome of the race, but you know if people have a terrible swim, they can never really be a top-tier swimmer. So he actually created quite a great model that people have modeled after — you know, group swims. The power in the group, Tower 26, in what he did in Los Angeles, which I think not only has a hard community to break into — but he’s successful, you know, not for years, not for 10 years, but probably for 20 years doing this. He’s also been an editor of magazine, so he knows how to write. He knows how to research, he knows how to reference. I think that’s also helped him — and his power of observation with helping people in their strokes — because, you know, not only is the written word powerful, he also has, I would say, a high integrity level. But he’s also very embracing and he has the integrity to call out things that are right and to try to help people do the right thing.

And when I interviewed him, Gerry said that Bryan had no swimming qualifications. I think I’m paraphrasing a little bit. I think you agree with him. Well, do you agree with him — and then what do you base it on?

I don’t know him super well, but in high school he had a girlfriend who was trying to become his wife, and I do think Bryan’s probably very charismatic and he does look at what people are doing, and he knows and tries to create his own — which, you know, is no problem — but he was never an elite, was never an elite coach. But I think he’s very good at creating a following, which is a great skill, but his swimming skills don’t actually match the marketing. He does look a lot better, and he would always be standing or dating an Olympian or some elite person, which I think helped his acceptance in the world of swimming. And it’s not a big deal, but usually people know each other — where you swam, what team you were on — and it just seemed like… I was personally surprised, ‘cause it doesn’t seem like something you could make up or buy into. And it’s interesting that it’s been able to happen this way.

Then you ran into him — but I think you accused him of basically lifting your ideas and getting them published in magazines, and you even contacted the magazine. So walk the audience through what happened there.

It was a lot of swimming and a lot of analytical, and I worked in a laboratory and had people come from all over the world, and so I was making a better way to swim. It was almost like a snowboard curve, and I wanted to get out in the mainstream and do some clinics and write for magazines. And I would send in queries and then I would see they would turn me down and I would see Bryan’s name with the query in the outline that I sent in. I called the editor, and verbatim she said she liked him — she was trying to throw him a bone, they only pay $300, and I said well what about these clinics? They’re like, hey, he’s here, we’d like him. So to be able to make — rather than on his accolades or his background or his research or his knowledge — it was based on these personal relationships that he could develop, which just bothered me because it wasn’t professional.

I just thought, you know, if somebody’s great, let them be great, and I will step aside; and if somebody has the background, I’m all for it — I can learn something. But when things are done in a strange way that’s just not very honest or open or transparent, it was just very upsetting. And then because some of my stuff I felt like was so different than what was out there, I got upset; and then I got upset when I called the editor because, why are you giving somebody to fight? But I did credit him ‘cause I was like, well he’s doing that, he’s getting it out there. But I felt very shy. And then at one point he called me and I felt threatened because he said,

“You know you’re going to wish you never met me.”

And I said, I already wish I never met you. I have, you know, the emails, I have everything there. But I couldn’t believe that something I loved was getting hijacked almost by somebody that didn’t deserve it, and it was like I had to bless and release them and go — all the same stuff. It’s going to keep happening. Although I did call a few people he was dating and just said, hey, be careful, you know — he’s not above board physically, he’s not above board emotionally. He’s not. I just said, you know, I would utilize caution. And I did that because I try to help people not have some of the same frustrations that I’ve been through. So it wasn’t really against him — it was just kind of like, you know, be on the lookout for this. But I’m not saying that he didn’t help somebody swim — that’s fine — but you do need to get permits for the beach, you do need to get safety, and it would be better if you knew what you were doing. And maybe by now he has learned what he’s doing?

Just to be clear though — you presented some ideas for an article to a triathlon magazine, and he wrote the article you presented?

Unfortunately, that’s what happened. It happens to a lot of people who try to do this and it’s not right. And you mentioned he had an ex-girlfriend / his wife — how did he use her to build his own credibility and then present himself as the coach?

You know, it’s hard because there becomes a big blur between a personal relationship and a coaching relationship, which, you know, to me, has always bothered me when you see kids dating their coach and marrying the coach. It’s like I just feel like there should be separate things, and even though people are older, it’s kind of like — just ‘cause you’re standing in a garage doesn’t make you a car. Just ‘cause you’re standing next to an elite, you’re not an elite athlete.

And through the whole process I just tried to bless and release him and stay away from him, but I felt like, oh my God, it’s Bryan again, like he’s relocating, he’s resurfacing. He’s doing the same thing, but the scale keeps getting bigger and bigger and more — not so much inappropriate, but just basically wrong. Like everybody needs to follow the same rules, and of course it’s easy to do things the way you wanna do them, but we can’t live like that, especially as a group.

And then you mentioned that he doesn’t follow the rules. How do you know that?

I just know when he was doing — when he first started doing swim — he wasn’t getting permits, you know, he didn’t have safety people in some of his swims. And then he would get them. He would present himself in a vague way, and all of a sudden, you know, he’d get written about in an article and people go — because he wrote this article, he must be this — and then this group had him, and then oh, that group had him, and then, oh yeah, let’s have Bryan. So he kind of climbed his way up because of you writing an article or being in a clinic or dating an Olympian, or having a good — like, none of it was on his own accolades or merits or research or training or development. It was all bizarre associations that fell apart, but yet they took him to the next level.

And you know, you don’t want to judge people and you wish people the best, but when you have stuff like this happen, you’re like, oh wait a minute, like, when is it going to stop? Like, why does he keep doing this?

So it sounds like he’s essentially kind of like a media creation.

I think as a culture, some of it happened with social media. When you used to have an article written on you, it was written on you — you didn’t present it. You didn’t contact the TV station. You didn’t write the article and turn it in. It used to be very, very different. And I feel like now, with Andrew Neumann, Elizabeth Holmes of Theranos and Anna Delvey, people not only invent themselves — then they invent the company — and then they invent the story that goes with the company — and then it doesn’t work, but they get these people behind them, and they get a cult-like following. It’s like a strange religion, and people think it’s so great, you know, because their suit has an OWO on it, “One With the Ocean.” And you’re just like, oh wait a minute, like, it’s a nonprofit — so where is the money go? Who are you helping? Who’s on the board? How does the salary breakdown? How much did you raise? All this should be transparent.

And yes, it’s a phenomenal idea, and people need to learn to swim, but there’s a proper protocol in how to behave and do things, and I just feel like with him, it just kept going. I can’t believe that now it’s been a decade later and the arena is bigger. What’s happening? It’s not OK.

And then they have this ability to make anybody that calls them out a whistleblower — then they’re the bad people and he’s a victim. And it’s like, you know, just ‘cause you’re not doing it right doesn’t make you a victim. Do it right and everybody will wish the best for you. You’ve created something that people want — do it in the right way and then we will just say good for you.

You’ve actually been approached by a few of his acolytes in the last few days, you told me — correct? And what have they put pressure on you to do?

They haven’t put pressure on me, but they act like I’m trying to say something bad about open water or Bryan and how much he’s done for the community. And I’m like, no — when you have a nonprofit, or you’re presenting yourself, you have to use the proper channels. I cannot say I’m a physician and open a practice because my dad was a physician or because I know a physician. And I know swimming isn’t of the level of being a physician, but it does take a while to have…

There are certain things you cannot buy. You cannot buy your background. You cannot buy your talent. You cannot buy your hard work. And some of those things he’s been able to skim over, so it’s really created a dissonance of people going, “Oh my God, you’re saying something bad about this, we like this,” and there is huge power in a group. So when you get people running together, swimming together, they meet people, their lives open up — and especially during the pandemic. So I’m not saying some of his concepts are bad, even though I don’t agree with them. I don’t believe I will ever be one with the ocean. I think I need to respect and fear the ocean, and it’s not my home. I wish it were. I love it.

But people are buying into that, and that’s fine. But if you’re having a nonprofit and if you’re running a business, the protocol has to be OK, and that level of narcissism and self-promotion is a little bit hard because you think it’s real.

Were you aware of the problems with the nonprofit before the article came out? Because it sounds like you were.

I had kind of heard, but I really tried to distance myself because when he called me at home, and when other people had said he had said stuff, I just didn’t want to live that way. I don’t want somebody, you know, threatening me, coming after me. It even got me to be much more exclusive with my work. I started writing lessons and just working with people and not putting as much out there, but then that actually hurts me because then you don’t get the following. You don’t get, you know, that — not that I would want the following, but it would make things a little bit easier I think in my life. So I’ve heard about it but I didn’t know. But I realize now that they think people are smearing him, and I think people are just saying, hey dude, come on.

We all have to do the right thing. You know, you open a nonprofit, you have to have a board, your taxes have to be transparent. Everything. You can’t have one person getting the salary. You can’t say you’re doing this and doing it for this time. But if people actually look at his life and where he’s lived, he has invented himself, reinvented himself. Said he was a physical therapist. Said he was a trainer. Said he was — but he wasn’t. But I do think people want to believe. You want to believe the best of people, and especially when people are helping you with a fear-based anxiety thing, you want to think that they are what they say. And I think the nonprofit has started to raise so many issues with people because there are so many charlatans now. And I’m not sure if it’s because of the pandemic or because people are just looking for — I don’t know — it’s very prevalent now.

And so for those who believed it — this is all a smear — I don’t know if it’s the critic, but his biggest supporters that accuse you and others of smearing him — what would you say to them?

I’m actually really happy and I love — to me it reminds me of when I taught eighth grade in Rome, Italy, and I had to come in after their favorite teacher. And middle schoolers want to love their teacher. People want — there is this thing where people want to give it up to their guru, and whether it’s a coach or a teacher, everybody in the world is a middle schooler.

If he has helped them, that is great. I felt like he first took Gerry’s concept of Tower 26 and developed something called SLOG — people meeting. And you know, it’s not like I wish him ill will, but I wish the people that are falling over him and saying that everybody is smearing him would go: wait, what do I know about this? What’s true, what’s not true? Is this where, oh, I’ve donated $100 — where does my money go? How is it broken down?

So that’s the thing that I wish people would look at, you know, when they’re donating or hiring — and even people’s backgrounds. Like, where did they live? Why did they live here? They dated this person here, and then they moved here, and then they created this. And you know, the hopscotching to me raises a red flag, because if you go in every town, there are stories. And it’s not like people are behind talking about him — they’re just saying, hey, this is what you’re going to do, you need to do this. Do you have your CPR? Do you have the permit? Do you have the background that you’re saying?

So I think for people — I’m not saying he hasn’t helped people. I’m not saying he hasn’t had people feel welcome and that they love him. I’m just saying, you know what, it’s time now. You have to do things the way other people do. And some of the things, it’s not that great. It’s not that great getting insurance. It’s not that great getting permits. It’s not that great working hours and hours in a nonprofit and not making much money and not getting paid.

And you can be helping people, but that doesn’t excuse you from bolstering your résumé, and it doesn’t excuse you from not getting appropriate permits, and it definitely doesn’t excuse you, if you’re starting a nonprofit, of clearly taking the bulk of the money and making it to your own salary.

Last question — if somebody’s thinking about swimming, and you wanted to encourage them — what’s like the best thing about swimming, or why should people go to swimming?

I think it’s a lifelong activity. I do think it’s close to meditation. I think it’s also a skill — if you fall off a boat or drown, you can also help people. I think people get older and their joints — it really is the Fountain of Youth. And I think now, you know, three-quarters of the Earth is covered with water, people — you know, there’s so much traffic, riding bikes has become scary, running, their joints are bad. So swimming is this beautiful, wonderful thing.

And now people have more leisure time, they’re learning at later in life, and there’s a great community. And I just feel like — it’s not a leader, but you do have to have a little bit of respect and reverence, not only for those that came before you, but those that are around you, and even the ocean. And I do not feel he has that, as far as the way he’s done things. I’m not saying he won’t get that and it won’t develop. But I just think it’s an amazing thing — it’s an amazing thing of my life — and he’s not going to take away my love of swimming.

And he’s created a group and they love it and they love him. But it’s like, OK, you guys get it together and do it this way, and guess what — he might have to get a job. He might have to step away from it a year, ‘cause I don’t know how you could support yourself. And you’re not supposed to make a lot of money in a startup nonprofit, that’s for sure.

OK, well, thank you for being here.

Well, have a good night.

Reference profiles:
openwaterpedia.com/index.php?title=Eney_Jones
openwaterpedia.com/index.php?title=Gerry_Rodrigues
openwaterpedia.com/index.php?title=Bryan_Mineo